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Gomoku - Euroliga 2018/2019

zukole - 2018-10-10, 19:09
Temat postu: Euroliga 2018/2019
Cytat:
2018-10-09 20:54:55 Start of a new season
Dear players!

Registration for teams in season 2018/2019 is open.
Deadline is until the start of the season on 29.10.2018.

We are staying on piskvorky.net with the same time control as in last season (10+3).

For joining the league captains of teams have to visit the page 'My Team -> Edit team' and set the checkbox 'My team wants to play in the current season 2018/2019'.
Teams will appear in 'Playing teams' after administrator confirms them.

Teams can pick from 3 default admin dates, 15:00, 17:00, 19:00 server time, in case a team wants a different one than 19:00, team captain has to post a request in main forum thread here.

See you soon in interesting matches!

Igor Eged & the EL committee

No to hop.

zukole - 2018-10-31, 13:28

Zapisy trwają do 5 listopada.
zukole - 2018-11-05, 21:57

Pary pierwszej kolejki:

Czech Payback - No To Co
Estonian Penguins - INNERSTRENGTH
WayToTheSun - Czech Payback B
Luffarna - Demons and Wizards
Dark Team - Thunderstorm
Any idea - Humans-2015
Wake - Piece of cake.
CZ - GML - Outsiders
Czech Payback C +:- BYE

Czesi wystawili 6 zespołów :wow:

sandra113 - 2018-11-08, 16:02

A quick interview taken by me from Ilya Katsev, the captain of the Euroleague team "Way to the Sun":

Q: Why do you write the name of Zoli's team in capital letters, thereby distinguishing it from all other teams?

A: I write the team's name exactly as written by Zoli.

Q: What's the original idea behind the name of your team? The first association that comes to my mind is an Albanian joke: https://www.facebook.com/...20595&__tn__=-R

A: The name of our team was contrived by Oksana Matsyuk. Originally it was her team. They were looking for an experienced captain, and I was precisely an experienced captain who wanted to captain a team of novices. So the team became mine, and I do not really care about its name.

Q: Why do you think many strong Russian players like Nirvana, Furla, Valkon, and Edward are not playing this season? They played in the past, but are not playing now.

A: I think that everyone has its own reason. Denis dislikes the EL, as he wrote many times. Valery virtually does not play gomoku at all. Overall, the list of Russian participants always changes. Some played before, and some started playing just recently. The EL is open to everyone who agrees to obey the rules. Currently many strong Russians are playing - Nikonov, Kachaev, Litvinenko, Kozhin (as sorted by live rating).

Q: From your perspective, how likely is it that Alicecooper cheated in the EL?

A: I would not like to answer such a question, but I can say that
(a) the levels of play by Alicecooper in some EL matches and live games were dramatically different indeed, which cannot but cast suspicions, and
(b) I am strongly against calling anyone a cheater unless there is a proof.

Q: Do you find it regrettable that the Lord of the Lords is not participating?

A: The Lord of the Lords is me, and I am playing :) I guess you mean Alex Popiel, and, again, it is his wish not to play. I do not want to speculate as to why.

Q: Which final position must your team take for you to deem its performance successful?

A: Of course, we must win.


Here is the original Russian text of Ilya's answers:

Cytat:
1. Я пишу название так же, как оно записано самим Золи, вот и все.

2. У нашей команды название придумала Оксана Мацюк, изначально это была ее команда и они искали опытного капитана, а я наоборот - был опытным капитанов, который хочет возглавить команду из новичков. Так что в итоге команда перешла ко мне, название мне не так важно.

3. Думаю, у всех разные причины. Денису не нравится ЕЛ (как он много раз писал), Валера вообще не играет в гомоку практически. Вообще, состав игроков постоянно меняется, кто-то играл раньше, а кто-то начал только сейчас. ЕЛ открыта для всех желающих (которые согласны выполнять правила)!
В то же время много сильных русских игроков играют - Никонов, Качаев, Литвиненко, Кожин (смотрю сверху рейтинг-листа).

4. Я не хотел бы отвечать на такой вопрос, могу сказать, что
а. уровень игры Алискупера в некоторых матчах ЕЛ и в реальных играх правда драматически отличается, это не может не вызывать подозрений.
б. я категорически против того, чтобы называть кого-то читером без доказательств.

5. Сандра, Властелин властелинов - это я и я играю :)
Ты наверное про Сашу Попеля, опять же, это его желание - не играть. Почему - не хочу спекуляций.

6. Мы, конечно, должны выиграть

zukole - 2018-11-26, 20:41

2. kolejka:

Czech Payback - Dark Team
INNERSTRENGTH - Humans-2015
WayToTheSun - Wake
Demons and Wizards - Czech Payback C
Outsiders - No To Co
Thunderstorm - Estonian Penguins
Czech Payback B - Any idea
Piece of cake. - Luffarna
CZ - GML +:- BYE

zukole - 2018-12-18, 18:26

3. kolejka:

INNERSTRENGTH - Demons and Wizards
Outsiders - WayToTheSun
Humans-2015 - Dark Team
Czech Payback B - Czech Payback
Wake - CZ - GML
Czech Payback C - Estonian Penguins
Luffarna - Thunderstorm
No To Co - Any idea
Piece of cake. +:- BYE

Na piskvorky można obstawiać wyniki EL.

angst - 2018-12-19, 18:20

Czas trwania tej kolejki został wydłużony do 13.01.

Pozdrawiam

Angst

zukole - 2019-01-17, 17:21

4. kolejka:

Dark Team - INNERSTRENGTH
WayToTheSun - Czech Payback
Demons and Wizards - Outsiders
Luffarna - Wake
Estonian Penguins - Czech Payback B
Humans-2015 - Piece of cake.
CZ - GML - No To Co
Czech Payback C - Thunderstorm
Any idea +:- BYE

zukole - 2019-02-05, 12:23

5. kolejka:

Wake - INNERSTRENGTH
Estonian Penguins - Czech Payback
Dark Team - Demons and Wizards
No To Co - WayToTheSun
Outsiders - Luffarna
CZ - GML - Humans-2015
Piece of cake. - Czech Payback B
Any idea - Czech Payback C
Thunderstorm +:- BYE

sandra113 - 2019-02-06, 20:37

God gave the board on which to play,
And stones for building fives,
And many noobs to eat as prey,
And schemes as sharp as knives.

This sport is for the real men
Who have the nerves and skill,
And if you are a chicken hen,
They'll cook you on a grill.

And here we have a great intrigue:
Which team will win the Euroleague?
Instead of talking at great length,
I'll say it simply: Inner Strength.

zukole - 2019-02-26, 17:57

6. kolejka:

Czech Payback - INNERSTRENGTH
Demons and Wizards - WayToTheSun
Outsiders - Dark Team
Humans-2015 - Estonian Penguins
Czech Payback C - Wake
Thunderstorm - No To Co
Any idea - Luffarna
CZ - GML - Piece of cake.
Czech Payback B +:- BYE

zukole - 2019-03-18, 23:29

7. kolejka:

INNERSTRENGTH - WayToTheSun
Humans-2015 - Demons and Wizards
Czech Payback - Outsiders
Estonian Penguins - Dark Team
Luffarna - Czech Payback B
No To Co - Czech Payback C
Piece of cake. - Thunderstorm
Any idea - CZ - GML
Wake +:- BYE

zukole napisał/a:
Historia derbowych starć Demons and Wizards vs Dark Team.
2006/2007 Demons and Wizards 21 - 11 Dark Team
2010/2011 Dark Team 13,5 - 18,5 Demons and Wizards
2011/2012 Dark Team 16 - 16 Demons and Wizards
2012/2013 Demons and Wizards 20 - 12 Dark Team
2014/2015 Demons and Wizards 18 - 14 Dark Team
2015/2016 Demons and Wizards 24 - 8 Dark Team
2016/2017 Demons and Wizards 19 - 13 Dark Team
2017/2018 Demons and Wizards 16,5 - 15,5 Dark Team
angst napisał/a:
No i od 7 lat jesteśmy w Gran Derbi niepokonani u siebie! ;)
24 lutego zdobyliśmy twierdzę :P
usiek92 - 2019-04-01, 23:27

Niestety mamy kolejnego oszusta... Załączam screen z naszej rozmowy. Przykro patrzeć, że wśród uczestników EL są osoby z takimi poglądami.


usiek92 - 2019-04-02, 22:59

W związku z licznymi wiadomościami dotyczącymi powyższego postu, naciskającymi abym wyjawił kim jest oszust, postanowiłem powiedzieć prawdę: Prima Aprilis! :D
angst - 2019-04-03, 20:48

A założyłbym się, że to Fudjin :)

Pozdrawiam

Angst

zukole - 2019-04-08, 00:11

Na piskvorky.net czas serwera jest identyczny dla wszystkich dostępnych do wyboru języków logowania. Proponuję zmienić pkt 6.3 i pozostałe odnoszące się do CET na "server time".

Poprzednim razem zmiana czasu była powodem nierozegrania w zaplanowanym terminie spotkania pomiędzy Way i Outsiders w sezonie 2013/2014. Po sezonie sugerowałem zmianę treści obowiązującego wówczas punktu wraz z uwagą, że "CET byłoby dobre, ale(...)".

Za tydzień premiera ostatniego sezonu Gry o tron, dlatego zacytuję Benjena Starka :)
Cytat:
wszystko to, co słyszymy przed ale jest nieważne

zukole - 2019-04-10, 19:41

8. kolejka:

INNERSTRENGTH - No To Co
Demons and Wizards - Wake
Czech Payback - Humans-2015
Czech Payback B - Outsiders
WayToTheSun - Thunderstorm
Estonian Penguins - Luffarna
Czech Payback C - CZ - GML
Piece of cake. - Any idea
Dark Team +:- BYE

sandra113 - 2019-04-12, 16:52

A serious incident occurred last Sunday in the Gomoku Euroleague.

In a nutshell, the Russian team ''Way to the Sun,'' captained by Ilya Katsev (Bromozel), came to play their match against the leading team, namely the Hungarian team ''Inner Strength'' captained by the current gomoku world champion Zoltan Laszlo (Zoli), not at Central European Summer Time (CEST) as has been being customary for the period of the summer time since years ago, but an hour later, at Central European Time (CET) as still formally stipulated in the Euroleague rules, and, finding no opponents, later attempted to claim a victory by walkover despite perfectly knowing that the Hungarian team had come an hour earlier in full accordance with the common practice.

I very extensively discussed the incident with both sides, in particular with Zoltan Laszlo and Gergo Toth on the Hungarian side as well as with Ilya Katsev and Denis Kachaev on the Russian side, and decided to write a detailed article about the incident to reflect my knowledge of the facts as well as my impression about the real motive of the Russian team. My aim is twofold: (i) to help the Euroleague committee take a decision and (ii) to widely inform the gomoku community about what happened.

Here are the essential facts of the case:

(1) In the match date negotiations, held by means of the automated system on the Euroleague website, the teams were unable to reach any agreement despite a number of offers and counteroffers, so the match date was set for the admin date, Sun 7 Apr 19:00. Clocks in Europe changed a week before the admin date.

Here it needs to be noted that since years ago, match times shown on the Euroleague website have been being interpreted as the Polish/Hungarian/Czech times, that is, as CET in the winter time period and as CEST in the summer time period, but the rules still formally stipulate that all times have to be interpreted as CET, with no provision being made about CEST. I quote from the rules:

''6.3. All offers must be written in CET time format, in seasons played at playok.com site the part of the offer has to be the room of playok.com where the match will be played.''

''6.9. ... There are three groups with starting times to be used as admin date: 15:00, 17:00 and 19:00 CET respectively.''

As these clauses contradict the common practice, they are a dead letter for the purpose of interpretation of times. Dead letter is a well-known term in the English-speaking countries and is defined as follows: ''A statute, law or ordinance that is no longer enforced but has not been formally repealed.'' (https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/dead+letter)

The term ''dead letter'' originated centuries ago and, for example, was used in 1840 by Her Britannick Majesty's Principal Secretary for Foreign Affairs Lord Palmerston in a famous letter to the Minister of the Emperor of China. In that letter Lord Palmerston explained that putting a dead letter in force by the Chinese leadership against British citizens without a proper notice was one of the reasons for hostility measures taken by Great Britain against China. I highly recommend reading that historic document, for it is not only an excellent explanation of how to deal with dead letters and why, but also a great example of excellent writing. Here is a link to the document: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Lord_Palmerston_to_the_Minister_of_the_Emperor_of_China

(2) On Sat 6 Apr Ilya made a post on the Euroleague forum: ''We will play in admin date, tomorrow at 19:00 CET (21:00 Moscow time).''

Posting the match date on the forum is a standard practice to deal with a well-known bug on the Euroleague website: Sometimes the schedule shows a wrong match date, and when this happens, one of the captains usually posts the correct match date on the forum. This was exactly the case for the match between ''Way to the Sun'' and ''Inner Strength,'' as the schedule showed a wrong starting time, namely 10:00.

The Moscow time, specified by Ilya in the brackets, corresponds to 20:00 CEST, thereby leaving no doubt as to what time was meant.

The forum, however, is practically not read, and Ilya did not announce the match on the popular gomoku forum vk.com/gomoku, which he often uses to announce interesting matches of his team.

(3) The Hungarian team arrived at 19:00 CEST and, finding no opponents, left after half an hour of waiting. In the game room chat, I told the Hungarians that the Russians might have forgotten about the recent time change in Europe, but the responses I got indicated that the Hungarians were not willing to wait. (In this article, I refer to the Hungarian team as ''the Hungarians'' despite that they have some foreign players as well.)

(4) Shortly before 19:30 CEST, I sent private messages via vk.com to two players of the Russian team, namely Ilya Katsev and Mikhail Kozhin. In the messages, I asked what was going on, and told that the Hungarians had been waiting already for half an hour. Ilya was offline, while Mikhail was online, but did not instantly read my messages. Right after I sent them, I checked the rules and instantly spotted the problem.

(5) At 19:40 CEST I informed Zoli that the rules say the times have to interpreted as CET. He immediately responded that this is against the common practice and that his team had thus already won by walkover.

(6) At 19:49 CEST I got a response from Mikhail, ''Hi! Our captain needs to be asked :) I am not playing today :) '' The response was made about 10 minutes after Mikhail read my message. Ilya remained offline.

(7) At about 20:00 CEST the Russian team showed up. I urged Zoli to make his team come, but he refused and said he was almost sure that the Russians had done the whole thing on purpose.

(8) The same evening Zoli and Ilya made walkover reports against each other on the Euroleague forum. These reports were followed by a heated exchange of messages on the same forum: Ilya stuck to the rules, whereas Zoli called the relevant rule dead and claimed that the Russians had done the whole thing on purpose. Both captains continued insisting on a victory by walkover. Here is the link: http://euroleague.cz/php/forummsgs.php?for=4

To me, the most serious question is whether the Russians and, in particular, Ilya had bad intent in advance, i.e., whether they masterminded the whole thing. Exactly how it happened that they did what they did?

In an attempt to find out the truth, I extensively discussed the issue with Ilya Katsev (on vk.com) and Denis Kachaev (on piskvorky.net) the same evening.

Below are the essential statements made by Ilya in my conversation with him. (In this article, I always quote Ilya as translated by me from Russian.)

(i) ''I did not decide to exploit anything, I really did not know that clocks in Europe periodically change. To be exact, I did not remember when they change.''

(ii) ''I did not even know that there is a winter time in Europe. In Russia, winter time had long ago been abolished. I thought it had been abolished everywhere.'' (Note that this contradicts to statement (i), which says that Ilya merely did not remember when clocks change.)

(iii) ''I wrote on the forum because the schedule indicated 10:00. This is a website bug.''

(iv) ''I checked the rules before the match. Before I did this, I thought that we (the Euroleague committee) had changed CET to Prague time in the rules. But it turned out we had not. So I negotiated the match date in terms of CET.''

(v) ''But we had no intent to trick. I just did not check about the time change.''

(vi) ''The time difference at the start of the round was two hours, and later I did not check whether clocks in Europe had changed since then. If I had noticed that clocks had changed, I would definitely have sent a question to Zoli to clarify the match time.''

(vii) ''In our team chat, CET started to be discussed at 21:27 MSK'' (i.e., half an hour after the Russians came to play the match). ''The first to write about CET was Kozhin.''

(viii) Ilya's statement in response to my question what made him check the rules before posting the match date on the Euroleague forum: ''I simply wanted to write when we would play, and I wanted to write in the same terms as in the rules.''

(ix) In response to my question whether he did not check the rules before making date offers: ''Exactly, and this is why I checked the rules afterwards. I checked the rules to ensure that the time I was offering to Zoli and the time I was telling my teammates in the MSK format was the same time.'' (Note that this contradicts to statement (vii), where Ilya provides a different explanation of why he checked the rules.)

(x) Ilya's statement in response to my question why he added the Moscow time in his post, but did not do so in his previous analogous post: ''People do various things for no reason. I simply wrote in this way, and I found it natural - CET for Europeans, MSK for Russians. I do not know why I did not write the MSK time in my previous post. At that time, the match date was discussed on vk.com, and I may have subconsciously thought that all Russians already knew the match date.''

(xi) ''Zoli is terribly wrong in believing that we had bad intent. I strongly dislike his behaviour and will change my opinion about him.''

Below is a conversation part in which Ilya and I talked about how he had managed to avoid similar incidents in previous seasons (as translated by me from Russian):

Cytat:
Sandra: Am I right in understanding that in all matches of the previous season, you interpreted the times shown in the automated match date negotiation system as CET even when the time in Central Europe was CEST?

Ilya: I think I interpreted as ''European time,'' and for most part of the season I had no doubts what the difference between that time and Moscow time was. As I said, before this round I did not remember which term is used in the rules - Prague time or CET.

Sandra: How is this relevant?! The rules have not changed since the previous season. I am asking you about your actions in that season. If the rules did not change and you actions changed, then it is you who is the crook.

Ilya: о_О I always act in accordance with the rules. I may not necessarily know them, and I may mix up something in them, but I never intentionally violate the rules.

Sandra: That is, in the previous season you acted in accordance with the rules as they formally stood, bringing your team at CET even when the Europeans had CEST?! Do I understand right?!

Ilya: To be honest, I even thought that CET coincides with CEST (in the summer). At least this is how I understood Zukowski five years ago, when a similar incident occurred.

Sandra: In the previous season, exactly how did you deduce the MSK time at which you had to bring your team, from the match time indicated in the automated match date negotiation system?

Ilya: As I said, I interpreted the latter as abstract ''European time'' and almost always had no doubts what it was. Moreover, for many matches (e.g., for the last two) we did not use the automated system to negotiate the match date.

Sandra: Exactly how did you find the difference between that European time and MSK time? What did you use to find the difference?

Ilya: I do not remember. I used different ways. Probably I knew what time was in, for example, Prague. And, for example, this round I decided to investigate the issue and looked at the rules. There a precise algorithm is written: One has to come to play at CET. Probably I previously often looked at the rules and used CET.


I asked Ilya whether he could agree to give access to his team's chat to some reputable person for the purpose of verifying that the team had had no bad intent, and Ilya responded, ''Of course I won't. How dare you?''

Ilya also said he would support the idea to play the match later, but added that his teammates were unsure.

Now I would like to describe my discussion with Denis Kachaev. (In this article, all quotes from him are given as translated by me from Russian.)

He initially was in excellent mood, showing his joy by smiles and phrases including, ''The Hungarians are getting zero this round :) ,'' and emphasising that the Hungarians had to come at CET.

My very first question was, ''Did your team do this on purpose?''

His response was, ''F*ck knows.''

However, after I told him that everyone thought that the Russians had done this on purpose, he reacted differently, ''How can you talk about it, it is laughable, of course that's not true, bullsh*t.''

I explained that I strongly suspected that Ilya had masterminded the whole thing, and I made it clear that if this is true, then it is really bad.

In response, Denis said he (Denis) himself had not been aware of the recent time change in Europe, and added that in his opinion, the match needed to be re-scheduled to be played at a later date.

Denis further said, ''It is bad that this happened. It was not our intent. It happened accidentally.''

What can we deduce from the known facts and my conversations with Ilya and Denis?

First of all, I find it hard to believe that Ilya had such a vague idea about time in Europe and the common practice of interpreting match times on the Euroleague website, and here is why:

(i) Ilya has been captaining Euroleague teams since ages ago, and he negotiated, played, and watched heaps of Euroleague matches. For example, one of the matches played last season by his team ''Way to the Sun'' in the summer time period was against ''Estonian Penguins,'' and that match was played at CEST, as can be easily verified by comparing the statistics on the game server (piskvorky.net) with the schedule page of the Euroleague wesite in the Internet archive (web.archive.org).

(ii) Ilya frequently travels to Europe and played in about a dozen of live tournaments in Czechia, Poland, and Hungary, which are countries that use CET/CEST. Some of these tournaments were played in the winter time period (e.g., the Hungarian Meijin Tournament 2018 and the Polish championships of 2015, 2016, 2017), and some - in the summer time period (e.g., the world championship of 2017 and the team world championship of 2018). According to his words, Ilya also often makes business trips to Europe and, in particular, sometimes works in Berlin.

(iii) The last change of clocks in Moscow dates back to 2014, and it has been a few years since then for Ilya to get used to the time difference between Moscow and Central Europe being two hours in the winter and one hour in the summer.

(iv) In March 2017, Zukowski made a post in the Euroleague thread on vk.com/gomoku to warn people about the time change in Europe, and Ilya replied, ''Michał, we have decided to change time in the rules to Prague time (instead of CET/CEST) :) '' This indicates that Ilya read Zukowski's post and had a good idea about the common practice.

(v) The other Russian captains successfully manage to avoid similar incidents despite having less experience in the Euroleague and less travel experience. The last similar incident in the Euroleague occurred about five years ago.

(vi) The explanations provided by Ilya to me look very dodgy for many reasons. As I wrote above, Ilya swings between claiming he was not aware that clocks change at all, and claiming he did not remember when clocks change. At two different points of the conversation, he provided two different explanations of why he looked at the rules before making his post. Furthermore, despite my clear and precise questions he failed to clearly explain how he had deduced the Moscow times of his matches in the previous season, at one point even saying, ''I do not remember.'' He used the word ''probably'' in his statement, ''Probably I previously often looked at the rules and used CET,'' and it is hard to believe that he did not really remember his past actions.

Thus I clearly feel dishonesty, but, on the other hand, well knowing the players of the Russian team, especially Ilya Katsev himself, Denis Kachaev, Mikhail Kozhin, and Andrey Litvinenko, I find it very hard to believe that they, all of a sudden and entirely unprovoked, would plan in advance to try to win by walkover, conspiring all together. They love gomoku. In this particular situation, it is especially hard to see any possible motivation to win in this way, as the Russian team had practically lost any chance to win the title. Any reasonable person would see that an attempt to win in this way would definitely result in a scandal and reputation losses. And if the Russians had truly intended to win by walkover, Ilya and Denis would probably not have signaled their consent to re-schedule the match.

I see only the following realistic hypotheses of what really happened with the Russian team:

Hypothesis 1: The Russians simply forgot about the time change and then, after the ''match,'' came up with a cover-up in order to avoid a loss by walkover, pretending to have been unaware of the common practice and to having used the rules as a guidance. I am afraid I unwillingly gave them the idea of such a cover-up, as I somewhat mindlessly told Kozhin at 19:49 CEST (right after his response to my initial messages) what the rules say. And, as I wrote above, according to Katsev it is exactly Kozhin who started talking about CET in the team chat.

Hypothesis 2: Ilya or the Russians as a team masterminded the whole thing, being provoked by rejection of all their match date offers and/or by huge inconvenience of the match date. I quote Ilya Katsev: ''This day is extremely inconvenient for us. I even was unable to come. And Zoli had rejected all my offers and had been offering this day. That is, he had not hesitated to use the letter of the law for his purposes.'' Denis Kachaev also mentioned tough match date negotiations. Zoli gave me the log of the match date negotiations, confirming they had been tough indeed, with 8 offers being rejected. The Russians may have wanted to retaliate for what they saw as abuse of the rules, namely the admin date rule, and thus may have had any of the following purposes in mind:
(2a) To make the Hungarians wait one hour,
(2b) to win by walkover,
(2c) to re-schedule the match for a more convenient day.

Hypothesis 3: A mixture of negligence and lack of good will. For example, the Russians forgot about the time change and were going to come at 21:00 Moscow time, as they normally would in the winter time period, and then Ilya realised that clocks had changed, but decided to simply let the situation happen, opting to stick to the letter of the rules. His motivation may have been a desire to punish the Hungarians and/or unwillingness to admit his own mistake and tell his teammates to change plans.

Which of the above three hypotheses is more likely?

I cannot exclude any of them, but Hypothesis 1 seems to me to be more likely than the others for the following reasons:

(i) The mere timing of the incident - it happened just a week after the time change.

(ii) Subtle psychological clues in my conversations with Ilya and Denis point in the direction of Hypothesis 1.

(iii) Hypothesis 1 assumes less evil, is simpler, and is thus more consistent with the spirit of Occam's razor.

(iv) I guess that if Ilya had realised his mistake before the ''match,'' but had merely not wanted to admit his mistake and tell his teammates to change plans, he would probably have tried to reduce the mess by, e.g., directly informing the Hungarians about the intent to enforce the rule.

(v) In general, comparing bad intent to attempting to cover up negligence, I would say the second thing is a much more Russian way.

Ilya's post, made one day before the match, seems to well fit Hypothesis 1. In that post Ilya used the abbreviation CET just like in his previous analogous post and also specified the corresponding Moscow time just like in an analogous post made in 2017. I guess that if Ilya had made his post with bad intent, he would probably have concealed the Moscow time to avoid prematurely alarming the Hungarians.

Ilya also told me, ''The irritation is not due to them coming an hour earlier, but due to them leaving for the purpose of getting a point without playing.'' I think that this irritation explains why Ilya started claiming a win by walkover after the ''match.''

Could the Hungarians have waited for one hour? Matches normally last a few hours, and it is hard to exactly say in advance when the match will end, so the Hungarians must have allocated a few hours for the match in their plans. Although the Hungarians wanted to play an hour earlier (at 18:00 CEST) as I can see in the match date negotiation log, I think that having to wait per se probably was not the critical issue for the them.

I think the real critical issue for the Hungarians was different: They apparently felt sure that at any rate, they had been disrespected by the opponents. Be the disrespect in the form of bad intent or merely negligence to ensure coming at the right time, it is still disrespect. When I suggested in the game room chat that the Russians might have forgotten about the time change, I got negative responses from the Hungarians. Later, Zoli wrote on the Euroleague forum, ''... we left because we are not clowns to wait for one hour ...'' More or less well knowing Zoli, Gergo, and the Hungarian players in general, I know that respect is one of the central things for them, and dismiss the idea that the Hungarians simply wanted to earn a point without playing. After all, they were 2.5 match points ahead of the Russians. The Hungarians want respect and a serious professional approach towards themselves and gomoku.

Now I would like to state my conclusions from my investigation.

To the Russian team and Hungarian team: Please do not demonise each other. Although I cannot exclude that the Russians masterminded the whole thing, they do not appear to have done so. They rather appear to cover up their negligence. And the Hungarians did not leave just to earn a point without playing.

To the Euroleague committee: Clean the rules from all dead letters and inaccuracies. Concerning the present case, enforcing the dead letter or using the dead letter as an excuse to force the Hungarians to play the match against their will is a no go. If I were to decide on the case, my decision would be the following: As a form of respect, I would officially give the Hungarians the right to take a point by walkover, but friendly ask them to agree to play a match and to make one or a few match date offers, whatever they can. The Russians would then have to take it or leave it.

To all players: Learn a lesson from this incident. Be respectful to your opponents, which includes ensuring that you come to play at the right time. And do not prematurely demonise people.

angst - 2019-04-13, 00:58

sandra113 napisał/a:
Hypothesis 1: The Russians simply forgot about the time change


Sandra, how this hypothesis refers to the message from Ilya on EL Forum?

I think you could try to win "the longest post" competition :)

Kind regards

Angst

sandra113 - 2019-04-13, 12:22

angst napisał/a:
sandra113 napisał/a:
Hypothesis 1: The Russians simply forgot about the time change


Sandra, how this hypothesis refers to the message from Ilya on EL Forum?


Piotrek, I am unsure whether I get your question right, but I guess you want to ask how Hypothesis 1 is consistent with Ilya's message posted on the EL forum a day before the match, or, in other words, how Ilya's message does not contradict Hypothesis 1.

That's very simple: Ilya in principle knew that clocks in Europe change each spring and winter and that the times on the EL website are to be interpreted as actual times in Poland/Czechia/Hungary, but it simply did not come to his mind that clocks in Europe had already changed. He somehow failed to think about it. He lives in Russia, where clocks do not change at all. Time in Europe does not affect his everyday life. Apparently he got overburdened by his work in Yandex as well as by his everyday duties, and nothing reminded him about the time change in Europe, so he had exactly the same state of mind as during the European winter time period. That is, mentally he was still in the European winter time period when he made his post on the EL forum. And if the match were in the European winter time period, it would indeed have to be played at 19:00 CET = 21:00 MSK. These times are exactly what Ilya wrote. He would have written exactly the same message in, for example, the first or second round of the Euroleague.

Yesterday I talked again with Denis Kachaev, and he said he had been overburdened by many duties in his life and had simply relied on his captain. Denis said he had simply been told by Ilya to come to play at 21:00 Moscow time, and had simply done so.

So I think the situation is indeed caused simply by Ilya's negligence. I think that it is only after the ''match'' that the Russians discovered they could use the formal rules to try to avoid a loss by walkover despite their negligence. Then Ilya started pretending he had been unaware of the common practice and had used the rules as a guidance. This explanation by Ilya does not pass the laugh test, as he negotiated, played, and watched many EL matches in the past. I think the truth is that, as I said, it simply did not come to his mind that clocks in Europe had been changed.

Pioterk, as you are one of the EL organisers, I tell you what: If the rules had been properly updated in accordance with the common practice, i.e., if ''CET'' had been replaced by ''Warsaw time,'' there would not have been any scandal. It would have been a simple walkover without any arguments and suspicions of bad intent. The scandal was partially provoked by the EL organisers. And it also would not have taken them much effort to drop a line to each non-European captain to inform about the time change, or would it? :)

Last year, when I was one of the WBC organisers, I took the following measures to avoid incidents of that kind:
- In the WBC rules, written by me, I used the term ''Warsaw time'' for clarity.
- On the schedule page, I explicitly wrote that all times were Warsaw times.
- A few days before the time change, I put an inscription in bold red font on the schedule page to say that clocks in Warsaw were changing.
- I sent private messages with notifications about the upcoming time change to a number of participants who, in my opinion, might forget about or be unaware of the time change.

And here is my rhetoric question: Was anything of the above done in the EL by the EL organisers? :)

iec - 2019-04-15, 12:29

sandra113 napisał/a:
Poland/Czechia/Hungary


Sandra, whu didn't you mention Slovakia?
I feel hurt :)

sandra113 - 2019-04-15, 15:04

iec napisał/a:
sandra113 napisał/a:
Poland/Czechia/Hungary


Sandra, whu didn't you mention Slovakia?
I feel hurt :)


Because the Slovaks are the outsiders :)

Btw, why have the EL rules not been updated since the incident? It does not take long to replace ''CET'' by ''Prague time,'' or does it? :)


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