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zukole 
Członek Zarządu


Dołączył: 04 Paź 2004
Posty: 3824
Skąd: Wrocław
Wysłany: 2017-06-03, 14:38   

Denis poddał partię po 20. ruchach. Zagrał słabo i nie wyciągałbym z tego daleko idących wniosków.

Trwa druga partia - https://logic-games.spb.ru/gomoku/?lang=en
 
 
sandra113 

Dołączyła: 23 Kwi 2016
Posty: 214
Skąd: Australia
Wysłany: 2017-06-05, 00:37   

Here is the outcome of the experiment: Denis quickly lost his game because of a calculation mistake, resigning when 19 stones were on the board, and agreed to play a second game under the same conditions as the first one. He lost his second game, too. In the latter game, however, he achieved a highly advantageous position, which Yixin evaluates as about 200 in Denis' favour, which means a very high probability of Denis having a sure win, but such a high score is achieved only starting at depth 16, so the position is not easy to convert to a victory, especially against a program. Being on his way to a victory but having less than half an hour left and still a huge amount of calculation work ahead, Denis again made a calculation mistake, giving Yixin a few-moves-long win, and resigned after Yixin's response.

The games have been copied to playok.com so that everyone can conveniently have a look at them. The links are below.

First game: https://www.playok.com/en...m&pid=124991056

Second game: https://www.playok.com/en...m&pid=124991104

A couple of conclusions from this experiment:

1. Strategic, positional play is a real thing. Denis calculated considerably less deeply than the program, but built a huge advantage admitted by Yixin.

2. Such positional play requires reliable calculation because the player often has to choose moves that almost give a win to the opponent. It is like walking at the edge of an abyss. And it is not easy to play that flawlessly - Denis, who occupies the 11th line on the world ranking list, made a calculation mistake in both games. Without reliable calculation at each step, an attempt to positionally outplay the opponent will likely result in giving him a local, tactical win. The opponent will just have to pick the fruit.

Any opinions about the games and conclusions?

P.S. As the games will disappear from playok.com in 6 months, here is the record:

First game: Yixin - Osipov 1. b14 c13 2. c11 white 3. - e9 4. d11 f11 5. e12 d12 6. e11 b11 7. f13 g14 8. e10 c10 9. h10 d9 10. e8 f9 11. g9 1-0

Second game: Yixin - Osipov 1. c14 b13 2. d14 white 3. - e12 4. e10 g11 5. f10 d10 6. e11 f9 7. c11 c13 8. d9 e8 9. h11 i10 10. d12 f14 11. c8 b7 12. d7 i9 13. c9 c7 14. e6 f5 15. h10 h8 16. f6 d8 17. h9 i7 18. i8 j7 19. f13 e13 20. d13 1-0
 
 
sandra113 

Dołączyła: 23 Kwi 2016
Posty: 214
Skąd: Australia
Wysłany: 2017-06-06, 13:49   

Today the experiment "human vs program" will be continued - Gergő will play against Yixin at 21:00 Warsaw time on https://logic-games.spb.ru/gomoku/?lang=en :) The time control will be 60+30.

Gergő is the current champion of Hungary and won the silver medal of the last World Championship. He is second on the world ranking list, having 1912 points. Last season he showed the highest efficiency in the Euroleague (counting only those who played more than 20 games) - 83.3%. He is also the current leader of the IRP championship.

Will one of the very best players in the world beat the program? How will Gergő's approach differ from Nirvana's? Come watch :)

Everyone is also invited to join the chat at https://vk.com/app5747634_-19499145 to discuss the game in real time with experts. Last time this chat was joined by many strong players such as Dmitry Epifanov and Ilya Muratov. To join the chat, registration on vk.com or membership of vk.com/gomoku may be technically required.

Rules: swap2 gomoku, overlines not counting as wins. The operator (who will be me) will put a corner opening on behalf of Yixin, and Gergő will not know in advance exactly which corner opening will be put. All subsequent moves against Gergő will be made by Yixin, and the operator will not interfere with its work in any way. In Yixin's options, the operator will set the restriction of 60 minutes per game, so Yixin itself will manage its time. The laptop on which Yixin will be run is quite standard (Lenovo Thinkpad T510). Gergő is allowed to use only his brain, i.e., he is allowed only to look at the board shown on the screen and click. He is not allowed to use programs to analyse a position, use libraries, written notes, literature, analyse a position on a real or virtual board by placing stones, get hints from other people, etc.

Here is how you can watch the game:

1. Go to https://logic-games.spb.ru/gomoku/?lang=en

A menu with four options will pop up.

2. In the menu, under "Welcome," click on the right button ("Play as a guest"), unless you want to register or use an existing account. After you click on that button, a short non-translated Russian text will appear below it. Click on the button just below that text. (This button just means that you understand the limitations of using a guest account and agree to proceed.)

3. To make the board look like on playok.com, click on "Options" below the board. Then, under "Marks," select "Stones" and then click on "OK" below.

4. To avoid highly distracting invitations to play, click on "Options" (under the board), select "Do not invite me to the game," and click on "OK."

5. In the upper left corner, click on "In Game" and find the game being played by Gergő. He will be on the nickname vessago, and the nickname he will play against is Yix.

Come watch :)

 
 
sandra113 

Dołączyła: 23 Kwi 2016
Posty: 214
Skąd: Australia
Wysłany: 2017-06-09, 01:42   

He did it! Gergő beat Yixin! Gergő played safely and accurately, not sharpening the position and not giving the program any chance, and positionally outplayed Yixin, accumulating resources on the right flank and letting the program dig its own grave on the left one. And Gergő was able to convert his huge positional advantage to a win - in the end, he played a nice VCT consisting of 10 stones of his colour to the winning fork!

This inspiring victory is a perfect demonstration of the existence of strategic, positional play. The program calculated deeper in terms of local tactics, but was soundly outplayed strategically.

The game has been copied to playok.com, and here is the link, enjoy: https://www.playok.com/en...m&pid=125040722

And this perfectly demonstrates why "ultimate gomoku," i.e., games with a long time control in which both players are allowed to use everything, including programs, makes sense - a pure program, not supported by a human player's strategic thinking, will always lose, as Gergő demonstrated that a pure program can be beaten even with bare hands! So ultimate gomoku may become one of important genres of online gomoku in the future. Half a year ago, Dmitry Epifanov and Alex Popiel played such a game with the time control 120+30, attracting about five dozens of spectators and showing exceptionally high quality of play. The game eventually ended in Alex Popiel's favour.

Strategic, positional play is an Achilles heel of gomoku programs!

P.S. As the playok copy of the game between Gergő and Yixin will disappear in 6 months, here is the record:

Yixin - Gergő 1. c12 d13 2. e13 black 3. e10 f10 4. g11 f11 5. f9 g8 6. e8 d7 7. g9 h9 8. f7 e7 9. g5 h5 10. g10 i12 11. h6 i7 12. f6 f5 13. g6 i6 14. g4 g3 15. i5 g12 16. j4 k3 17. f4 d4 18. d6 e6 19. c8 c10 20. f12 f8 21. k5 i3 22. j5 j3 23. h3 k6 24. j7 j8 25. c9 e9 26. i10 k10 27. d10 e11 28. e3 d2 29. l6 j11 30. l9 j9 31. l11 j12 32. j10 k12 33. h12 k9 34. i4 h4 35. k11 l12 36. m12 h13 37. g14 j15 38. i14 j14 39. j13 m11 40. l10 k13 41. n10 i15 0-1
 
 
zukole 
Członek Zarządu


Dołączył: 04 Paź 2004
Posty: 3824
Skąd: Wrocław
Wysłany: 2017-07-31, 22:24   

W trakcie mistrzostw świata, ówczesny obrońca tytułu Rudolf Dupszki (dupsky) rozegrał dwie partie z programem Yixin. Czas na grę wynosił 120 minut + 30 sekund za ruch. Zapis wygranego przez Yixin meczu (2-0) możecie obejrzeć tutaj.

Na gomokuworld z kolei znajdziecie artykuł Bano o tym pojedynku :)
 
 
sandra113 

Dołączyła: 23 Kwi 2016
Posty: 214
Skąd: Australia
Wysłany: 2018-03-01, 12:12   



Today at 20:00 Warsaw time Roman Berezin and Márk Horváth will play a gomoku match of two games with the time control 60+30 on https://logic-games.spb.ru/gomoku/?lang=en.

Roman Berezin is a strong Russian renju player with a renju rating of 2104 and is particularly known for his bright personality, fighting spirit, and being an excellent team captain. He captained Russia 2 in the last world team renju championship, leading the team to a quite successful result – a draw 2-2 against Russia 1 in the direct encounter and the total fourth place, below only China, Estonia 1, and Russia 1. Roman plays renju since his teens and has a very strong passion for the game.

Márk Horváth is a Hungarian gomoku player who is best known for his one-minute gomoku skills. In the WBC, he was placed by the experts to Pot 1 (top 16) and has already won his group. So far, Márk has played only in one live gomoku tournament, the Hungarian Autumn Tournament held last year, and did not allow anyone except Zoli, Dupsky, and Gergő to earn more points than him in that tournament. Márk possesses a strong fighting spirit and does not hesitate to let others know about it - have a look at his T-shirt in the match poster above.

Rules of the match: gomoku, exactly five-in-a-row (overlines do not count as wins), swap2. The players are allowed to use only their brains, i.e., they are allowed only to look at the board shown on the screen and click. It is not allowed to use programs to analyse a position, use libraries, written notes, literature, analyse a position on a real or virtual board by placing stones, get hints from other people, etc.

Here is how you can watch the match:

1. Go to https://logic-games.spb.ru/gomoku/?lang=en

A menu with four options will pop up.

2. In the menu, under "Welcome," click on the right button ("Play as a guest"), unless you want to register or use an existing account. Then click on "Continue."

3. Click on "Options" below the board and choose the following options:

- Under "Marks," select "Stones" to make the board look like on playok.com.

- Under "Disable invites," select "Do not invite me to the game" to avoid highly distracting invitations to play.

Then click on "OK" below.

4. In the upper left corner, click on "In Game" and find the game being played by Roman and Márk. Click on the game and enjoy :)
 
 
sandra113 

Dołączyła: 23 Kwi 2016
Posty: 214
Skąd: Australia
Wysłany: 2018-03-02, 11:58   

They played 1-1 and, following Márk's suggestion, decided to play a decisive game with the same time control, which was eventually won by Roman.

Game 1. Márk put an opening, and Roman chose white.


Game 2. Roman put an opening, and Márk chose white.


Game 3. Márk put an opening, Roman added two stones, and Márk chose black.


My detailed comments on the games (in Russian) are here: https://vk.com/topic-19499145_35656613?post=41194

Short version: In Game 1, Roman played very solid and outplayed his opponent. Especially worth mentioning is Roman's aggressive move 8-h9, which was obviously well-calculated and created a strategically favourable position. Márk's combination 9, 11, 13, 15, played pretty quickly, only further improved Roman's position from the strategic standpoint. Game 2 was decided by Roman's blunder - he missed Márk's VCT. In Game 3, Márk got an advantageous position by choosing the right colour after Roman added two stones, and pressured Roman for quite long, but Roman was able to survive and, when the game was developing towards an inevitable draw, exploited a sudden mistake by Márk.

Ilya Katsev, who is likely to face Márk in the upcoming Hungarian Meijin tournament, commented that as a result of the match, he would consider Márk a more serious opponent than before .

Here is what Roman Berezin said about the match:
Cytat:
На мой взгляд, есть кое-какие аспекты игры, над которыми Марку надо поработать для достижения серьёзных результатов. Тем более полагаю, что с контролем <20 мин на партию я едва ли выиграл бы хоть 1, а с контролем 2 часа на партию, и за доской, разумеется я не зевнул бы паузу во второй партии, да и вообще - усилений по ходу игры за черных там - предостаточно. Но как игрока я бы характеризовал его одним словом - компетентный.

В целом мне понравился отчет Сандры, неплохой анализ. Ну и вообще эти шлеп-шлеп 9-15 ходами в первой партии... Такого не должно быть на серьёзном контроле в принципе, такое не приносит плодов на некотором уровне. К тому же все знают, что в реальном серьёзном турнире каждая партия - это маленькая жизнь и мало кто оступается просто так даром, на ровном месте. Надо стараться играть (или хотя бы подмиксовывать) серьёзные контроли и вырабатывать более качественный и целостный план на игру. У меня все)

My translation:

- begin of the translation -

I think there are some game aspects that Márk has to work on in order to achieve serious results. Furthermore, I think I would be unlikely to win even a game if the time control was less than 20 min, but if the time control was 2 hours, I would not blunder in the second game, and, overall, there are many ways to strengthen black's play there. I would characterise Márk as a player by one word - competent.

Overall I like Sandra's analysis, it is quite good. And, well, this combo 9-15 in the first game... This should not happen at a serious time control in principle. This does not bring any fruits. Everyone knows that in a serious live tournament, each game is like a small life, and almost no one makes a misstep out of the blue, for free. One should try to play at serious time controls, or at least to mix them with short ones, and to develop self-consistent game plans of better quality. That's all I want to say :)

- end of the translation -

I congratulate Roman with the victory and wish Márk good luck in the upcoming Hungarian Meijin tournament to be played this weekend :)
 
 
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